Folks, I want to get our discussion group underway. I would ask you to
read the first "section" of Father O'Connor's book. If you don't own a
copy of the book it may be found on my web site at:
HISTORY OF CHELTENHMAN AND ST. JAMES PARISH
The first section is pages 1-15. There is no doubt this is the richest DISCUSSION material in the book, so we'll probably take some time on this early section. There are topic headings in this section and I would propose that we move slowly, topic by topic.
On THIS e-mail I have listed all of you who are in this group so you can see who we are, 13 of us. I will post one more "last notice" to the whole Dogtown list to see if any others want to join us.
However, future notes to this disucssion group will be sent via blind carbon copy, so you won't see all the names in your e-mail, only your own.
Also, since I'm not sending these via Webster University, Bill Vorbeck won't be archiving these in his normal archive. Thus I will number them, this being # 1 and try to collect up our discussion.
There are sections of the book which may not look as though they will generate much discussion -- maybe they won't; maybe they will. But, I would still like us to work our way through the book, and if discussion falls flat in some sections then we'll just move on to the next.
I am very excited by this more careful look at some of the better written records and hope over the coming years we do quite a few texts.
The floor is now open for discussion!!!!
Bob Corbett
i have read 8 pages, finally decided to read it off line. looked like
thats where most of my information came from. had copied what i thought i
could use. found a little old lady on nashville and let her read my copies,
and she kept the first half of them. i just filled in what ever came up. wish
there was a picture of sulphur springs racetrack. according to this story,
john o'gorman operated a mine east of the church 70 years ago. that would
make it 1867. i must have missed that.
lou
Fri, 2 May 2003: Bob Corbett comments
In just the second paragraph of the section on Cheltenham, P.J. says:
-----------
"In this descending table-land in 1861, ran a clear crystal stream, the River Des Peres; it was not city-minded. To the south and west in a tread of silver sheen it stretched a serpentine course through groves, orchards, farm lands, broken abruptly at intervals by a delightful vista of bluffs, hills and valleys."
-----------
He must be simply wrong about this in part. He may well be right about the section of the river flowing from Forest Park and TO the River des Peres Valley (which was all EAST of Macklind -- St. Louis Ave. in those days). But, since the railroad came in 1852 and by 1853 Laclede's factory was up and running, and others came along soon, the river itself would have begun to be seriously polluted by 1861.
-----------
The very next sentence is that utterly tempting morsel:
"... a group of English Quakers started a commercial level mine by 1844.
I do find this very surprising, though somewhere in the Sublette book it does say the Sublette's allowed a mine in the mid-1840s.
Lou Schmidt, didn't you write to the main list some weeks ago suggesting that Mr. Green (owner of the Pacific Brick factory which soon became the Laclede Brick co.) was himself Quaker and you suspected perhaps he was part of some small Quaker community????
Know any sources for that?
-------------
P.J. returns to the "idyllic" claim again shortly saying:
-------------
The first name given to Cheltenham District was Sulphur Springs. In the old Gratiot League Square there was a region almost up to 1860 idyllic in its native aspect. This was the little valley of the River des Peres stretching between the present Forest Park southwestwardly to Knox Avenue. Its slopes had originally been covered with the tree growth common to Missouri stream courses. A group of lordly oaks shaded seigniorily a clump of pawpaws. Here and there leaned over the des Peres the capple-bark of sycamore. Again, and solitary, stood a gigantic cottonwood. There were thickets of hazel, stretches of wild apple, and on the uplands one struggled through the briars of wild black-berry. (Bulletin--Shaw's Garden.)"
---------------
I would certainly like to find that Bulletin of Shaw's. I would be interested in comparing the date it has for such a description in relation to P.J.'s. Again, I think the year 1861 is optimistic.
---------------
P.J. gives EXACT sources on Sulphur's Springs ads:
Missouri Republican Tuesday, October 3, 1837, Page 2, Column 6. which tells of the races that were to be held for five days beginning Tuesday. October 17, at "St. Louis Sulphur Springs Course" and T. W. Thompson advertised in the same paper his Sulphur Springs House which was then the big hotel, and stated that the neighborhood abounded with excellent big hotel, and stated that the neighborhood abounded with excellent hunting grounds and a stream that afforded excellent fishing."
--------------------
In my own earlier readings of this book I had not realized he gives these exact dates. He must have had the clippings themselves. Maybe I'll even find them in some drawer in the rectory!!!!
At any rate, Sally Sharamitaro -- could I ask you to add those two sources to your list for sometime when you are at Mo Historical to copy for me? I'd love to post those whole ads to my web site and see if we can't even then find later ones. But at least we have exact dates for these two.
Well, that brings me, with Lou, up to about page 8.
Good reading.
Bob Corbett
May 3, 2003
Lou Schmidt Lloumera@aol.comi would suspect p.j. got his info on river des peres from that bulle,tin, or some sales pitch. your right when you say it had to get polluted. he probably had something from the 1830's. 30 years is a long time for land to stay beautiful after mining gets started. it got a lot worse when north county started dumping sewage in the poor little river. it's also hard for me to picture how the sulphur springs rose out of the south bank and stayed separate from river des peres. next - i didn't say green was a quaker, i asked if it was possible that he was a quaker. strange how that never came up. the question is still there.
the question of the race course has always bugged me. i found a clipping or two in the main library. there are drawrers just inside the door of the archive room, to the left. i think it was called the st.louis jockey club. but no indication of where it was located..there is one possibility, the "laclede race track". william sublette could have bought more land on the east side of kingshighway. this track was located in the southwest corner of kingshighway and manchester on what was mary mccree's old property. the city limits went to about grand, so that would be out of the city. the city didn't allow gambling.
lou schmidt
May 3, 2003
Bill Vorbeck WmVorbeck@aol.comI was born William J. Vorbeck in 1933. I arrived in Dogtown when I was two or three years old. So my memory of P. J. O'Connor began when I was seven years old or about 1940.
Any period prior to that date coming from my contributions to this forum would be hearsay and may not be supported by any factual data that I'm aware of, for if I did I would state the source. I like many others learned a lot about Father P. J. O'Connor, from seeing him at Mass, while on the Playground, when he visited us in our class room, through out the neighborhood going about his priestly duty visiting the sick, administering the last rights to those dying, (oh yes in the 1930 and 40s patients were sent home to die) many died in their own beds with family at their bedside.
But most of all just listening to our parents and siblings during dinner, and in the evening while we were all gathered in the living room or on the porch, back or front depending on the direction of the wind, just talking about interesting events that happened in the neighborhood. You know gossip!
Father O'Connor was an extraordinary person. I don't want to add to your reading burden but you should read listing
I've read the book he wrote "History of Chelten- ham and St. James Parish" by Rev. P. J. O'Connor, Pastor St. Louis, Mo. 1860 - 1937, a couple of times.
Bob challenged all of us to read it . . . not just Skim through it . . . READ IT! and lets discuss it among ourselves. Milk it for all we can get out of it. P. J., would like that.
I found out I really hadn't read the book I Skimmed through it. I glanced at the cover and when I got to page #4 I read it and while it looked similar to the cover there was a slight almost unnoticeable difference between them.
I noticed on Page 4 (my printer) there is a notation In the lower half of the page "WITH EPISCOPAL APPROVAL." Does that mean that P. J. had to submit his work for scrutiny by censor's? What do you think?
It unlike the cover at the bottom of the page, three additional lines "Commemorating the Diamond Jubilee of St. James Parish and the Twenty-fifth Anniversary of the coming to the Parish of Rev. P. J. O'Connor, Pastor."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By the way, which is correct St. James or St. James the Great(er) Parish? I looked in the book of Saints I have and found only a mention of St. James Great feast day July 28. The St. Paul Book and Media Store said they didn't have any information on St. James and referred me to Catholic Encyclopedia of Saints to find the information I was seeking.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bill Vorbeck
May 3, 2003
Bob Corbett corbetre@webster.eduBill Vorbeck writes: "I noticed on Page 4 (my printer) there is a notation In the lower half of the page "WITH EPISCOPAL APPROVAL." Does that mean that P. J. had to submit his work for scrutiny by censor's? What do you think?"
Bill, he would have had to have it "approved" but normally that would not involve any serious "scrutiny" in a book like this. The main purpose of the approval was the notion that the hierarchy, especially local bishop, was responsible that material not be published that would violate Catholic doctrine.
As best I know that is not longer the case, but I don't know when the "nihil obstat" (as we used to call it) was dropped as a requirement.
Bill continues: "By the way, which is correct St. James or St. James the Great(er) Parish? I looked in the book of Saints I have and found only a mention of St. James Great feast day July 28. The St. Paul Book and Media Store said they didn't have any information on St. James and referred me to Catholic Encyclopedia of Saints to find the information I was seeking."
Bill, technically the St. James for which the Dogtown parish is named is called St. James the Greater (older) to distinguish him from St. James the Lesser (another St. James who was younger than the other). The St. James the Greater was a crusader. I might mention that his holy card is very well know in Haiti, but not as St. James the Greater. Rather, he is Ogun, the warrior spirit of Haitian Voodoo. But the French colonialists of the 18th century wouldn't allow the slaves to "picture" the spirits of Voodoo. However, the slaves were forciably converted to Catholicism and could use holy cards and pictures. THus the slaves adopted the Roman Catholic "saints" who were close in nature to some Voodoo spirits and used their pictures.
St. James the Greater is Ogun, St. Patrick is Dumballah (the snake spirit of Voodoo), the Virgin Mary is Erzulie (the earth mother figure) and so on.
One can buy these large holy card type pictures in all the markets of Haiti today. I have a modestly large collection of them.
Bob
May 4, 2003
Peggy Koch typeset999@networkusa.netGratiot School was named after Charles Gratiot--but which one? The doctor or the owner of the original land grant?
Thanks,
Peggy
================
Corbett replies: Peggy, the official St. Louis Public School booklet, which Bill Vorbeck
got for me say this:
"Named for: Charles Gratiot (1752-1817) Judge."
This is the ORIGINAL Charles who came to St. Louis in the 1780s and received the original land grant.
If you see my page on Gratiot there is a great deal about him there.
Bob
May 8, 2003
Larry Hillebrand Makotoljh@aol.comMore on topic. PJ's book, and other reference sources you have provided, are silent on why the parish was named after James. I inquired today on how, who, names the parishes. There are few new parishes today, but in times past this was an active issue. The answer is that the Bishop does the naming. As there are typically few parish members at the time of the organization of the parish, the parish members do not typically vote on the subject.
Perhpas more research will indicate the rationale for the naming. But in my view, the reason is that St. James is the patron of laborers. And that would be consistent with the makeup of cheltenham at the time. Open to discussion from the group. Larry
Note paragraph which says that this James should not be confused with other James's. And the intervention on the part of James's mother - mothers have not changed much over the time.
St. James the Greater Apostle
Feastday: July 25 -- Patron of Laborers
For James there was no indication that this was the day that his life would change. The dawn for him was not the bright beginning of a new day, but the end of long fruitless night of fishing. As James sat mending his nets in the boat with his brother John and his father Zebedee, he must have watched in wonder as his partner Simon brought in nets loaded with fish he had caught at the command of Jesus. Was he shocked when he saw Simon and his brother Andrew walk away from this incredible catch at a word from this same Jesus?
As he watched Jesus walk toward him followed by Simon and Andrew, did he feel curiosity, fear, hope, envy? Jesus didn't pass him by but, stopping by their boat, called James and his brother John to do just what Simon and Andrew had done. Without argument or discussion, James and John left their boat and even their father behind, and followed Jesus.
The first thing James saw after he followed Jesus was his teaching with authority in the synagogue and the cure of Simon's mother-in-law.
We all know that Jesus was the focus of James' life from then on, but it is also evident that James held a special place in Jesus' life.
He was chosen by Jesus to be one of the twelve apostles, given the mission to proclaim the good news, and authority to heal and cast out demons. To be named one of the twelve James must have had faith and commitment.
But even among the apostles he held a special place. When Jesus raised Jairus' daughter when all thought her dead, he only allowed James, John, and Peter to come with him. Even more important when he went up to the mountain to pray, he wanted James, John, and Peter to go with him. And it was there on the mountain they were privileged to witness what no one else had seen -- Jesus transfigured in his glory, speaking to Moses and Elijah, as the voice of God spoke from a cloud.
And with Simon Peter, James and John were the only ones of the apostles that Jesus gave a special name: Sons of Thunder.
To be singled out in these ways, James must have been a close and respected friend of Jesus.
It's no wonder then that James, along with John, felt that he had the right to go to Jesus and ask him to give them whatever they asked. As a mark of his love, Jesus didn't rebuke them but asked them what they wanted. They showed their lack of understanding of his mission when the asked that he let one of them sit on his right and the other on his left when he came into his glory. He replied that they didn't know what they were asking. They didn't see the cross in his future, but an earthly throne. Could they drink of the cup he would drink of? They replied that they could. He assured them they would indeed drink of that cup.
(Matthew has their mother asking for this favor for her sons. Despite the bad reputation their mother got for this, it should be remembered that she too had followed Jesus in his travels, providing for him, and was one of the women who stayed with Jesus as he was crucified when the apostles, including her son James, had fled.)
The other apostles were furious at this request. But Jesus used this opportunity to teach all of them that in order to be great one must be a servant.
James and John did show further lack of understanding of their friend and Lord when he was turned away by Samaritans. They wanted to use their newfound authority as apostles not to heal but to bring fire down on the town. (Perhaps Jesus gave them their Sons of Thunder nickname because of their passion, their own fire, or their temper.) Jesus did reprimand them for their unforgiving, vengeful view of their power.
But despite all these misunderstandings, it was still James, Peter, and John that Jesus chose to join him in prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane for his final prayer before his arrest. It must have hurt Jesus that the three of them fell asleep on this agonizing evening.
James did drink of the cup Jesus drank of, all too shortly after the Resurrection. Acts 12:1 tells us that James was one of the first martyrs of the Church. King Herod Agrippa I killed him with a sword in an early persecution of the Church. There is a story that the man who arrested James became a convert after hearing James speak at his trial and was executed with him.
James is called James the Greater because another younger apostle was named James. He should not be accused with this James, or the James who is a relative of Jesus, or the James who was an elder of the Church in Jerusalem and heard Peter's defense of baptizing Gentiles. James, son of Thunder, was dead by then.
Legends have sprung up that James evangelized Spain before he died but these stories have no basis in historical fact.
James is the patron saint of hatmakers, rheumatoid sufferers, and laborers.
May 9, 2003
Bob Corbett corbetre@webster.eduTwo quick notes on P.J.'s treatment of COAL mines.
Bob
I'm for moving forward. Just a couple of simple notes:
"... concession to Gratiot League...." This is not a League in the sense of a group of some kind, it is more properly understood as a property grant of a League, that is a square one League on each side. Pretty impressive grant, and would be interesting to better understand just what the price was for that much land, and how Gratiot positioned himself to gain the land.
After the Louisiana purchase many of the these Spanish land grants were repudiated. Gratiot must have had a lot of pull.
And "Jim Tarrents, the gambler, lived...." Must have been somebody pretty special if he could have been identified by the title -- the gambler. Any info you can shed on just how he can by this title? Larry
===============
Corbett adds: Larry three comments on Gratiot's "grant."
--------------
That's huge!!!!
Bob
May 8, 2003
Lou Schmidt Lloumera@aol.comhave been trying to put everything into perspective, and writing a million notes. I go from P.J'S writings, to mine, to the mine information and maps. Starting to go around in circles. P.J. stated, he only had a month to get his book put together, and then got sick. His staff must have continued his work. Also, notice the books that are referenced. That was one of his sources, and those books can be deceptive. I found that out in my research. Think this book was one of my earlier finds, then commenced to find other info which may have been a little different. Thus, making the job harder and harder. I think his idea on coal mines was right. Read somewhere else the people on dry hill mined for themselves, and actually had mines from their basements. William Sublette had three mines in the valley, south of manchester, which were coal. He used coal and wood to supplement him in hard times.
There is problem here in thinking fire clay was so close to the surface. It was the coal that was close to the surface, and fire clay was very deep under the shale clay they used for bricks and clay pipes. It seems, on top of the hills the fire clay could be a 100 ft. deep, and in the valley, 40ft. deep. Sometimes the coal would only be a couple feet deep. If I remember right, the actual first find of fire clay was in south St.Louis when some quakers found while digging a well. There is more of your Quakers. Could they have been just English? As I think about it, the fire clay must have been a solid sheet throughout the whole valley and beyound, north and south. The english probably knew what they were looking for. They were known for their fine china, and it was said our clay would have made better. However the powers that be decided they could make more money on fire brick.
You may not trust the maps, but if you check it out, the coal was on top, next the shale clay, then the fire clay down below. That's my view, and I don't mind being wrong.
Maybe, we could start with this book, then interject ideas from other sources.
Lou
================
Corbett replies: Lou, we had tons of time and both this forum and the more general one for all sorts of ideas. I would us stick much closer to issues in the text itself here.
This all harks back to my teaching days. I was NOTORIOUS with my students for wanting to read every TEXT with great care and stay inside the text as much as possible. My general experience is that it is to easy to just "fly away" into the more familiar or known and not dig, dig, dig to the depths of each idea in the text.
Please, let's use THIS forum to stick as close to P.J.'s text as possible.
============
I do think you raise a most important point to reflect that P.J. put this book together quickly. He says a month and then mentions his illness as you say. However, I have to comment: I'm now working on my lecture on St. James Parish. I allowed 2 full months to do that work, and I spend much of my time on it. However, that doesn't really mean I will have prepared my lecture in 2 months. There is an important sense in which I have been working on THIS lecture (never knowing that) since 1999.
I strongly suspect P.J. did the same thing. He had been at St. James since 1912. He knew everyone and knew everyone's story. He heard tons of tales, and thus, while the ACTUAL preparation of the text might well have been a month long project, the real preparation went on much longer.
Bob
May 8, 2003
Bob Mirielli rrmmazella@yahoo.comAccording to Hyde's Ency. of St. Louis pg. 1130-first horse racing organized in 1828,it passed out of existence until 1848 and a new club was formed . The new club and track were laid out in an enclosure of eighty acres three miles from St. Louis on Manchester Road, and it's first race was on Oct 8 1848. after it went out of existence the new club in 1877 and purchased what was called Cote Brilliant race track.The club was supposed to have been well known just as the St. Louis Jockey Club. I really wonder where it was on Manchester?
bob
bobs, since your at the race track, i'll make a bet. the dates may be wrong again, but the track i'll bet on would be william sublette's track that he opened in 1838. the spot will be mary mc cree's old land just east of kingshighway. i found this on an 1872 map. it was named "laclede race track" by then. bob mazella stated it went out of existance in 1848. that would tie in with william's death in 1844. his organization was named "st.louis jocky club". the acerage is about 89 acres on the map. the race track would have left in 1877, because the city extended in 1876 to past mc causland, and the city wouldn't allow racing. the only other spot i can think of is in the north west corner of macklind and manchester. in later years when they had horseback riding in the park, they may have used old stables in that location. if someone could find the deed for the "laclede race track".
lou
May 11, 2003
Lou, today I put on my web site the stories I found in those article P.J. cited for 1837. Note in that story the author definitely identifies the group running the races as: The Jockey's Club. So, if you've got data that show where that race track was in 1838, then that's got to be it.
On the other hand, it is DEFINITELY called the Sulphur Spring Race Track. That seems odd if it's east of Kingshighway, unless, of course, Sublette just owned tons of land (which he did) and inclusively called it all Sulphur Spring.
Any thoughts on that?
Bob Corbett
here are a few points from P.J.'S book:
Para. 1 thru 3 are right out of a book or two which are still around. And which I don't trust. But that's me.
Para.1 - 605ft. seems about right for the highest hill. There has been a lot of discussion of who had the highest, so I searched my contour map, and couldn't anything higher than 600ft. which is at january and southwest, and included the insane asylum. Highpoint was next at 583ft, and Clifton heights at 560ft.. The rest of the hills were approx. 550ft.. What surprised me was about a block or two down the hill from St.James the map showed 500ft.. The valley at hampton is approx. 450ft..
Para. 3 - This is what the usual description for distance from town, "41/2 miles from the old Court House". Thus, the 3 mi. from the city for the race track meant 3 mi. from the court house could be on the east side of Kingshighway.
Also just a minor difference. The coal was the primary industry in the early days, then the clay was found deeper. Of course the names are wrong. Sublette mined coal, and before him the Gratiots.
For Clay - The " Laclede Christy Co." was originally "Humbleton and Green", then "Laclede", then " Laclede Christy". The "Cheltenham Co." started in 1855, then became "Evans and Howard.".
Para.4 - The railroad story could be a better one. I never did find the story about the arrival of the train in 1852 to Cheltenham. There had to be a big ceremony. The story of a bridge collapsing and killing prominent people of St.Louis was sad, but havn't seen a big spread about it. After that, people were afraid to ride a train that went all of 15mph.
Para.5 - 8000 acres is a bit much. Gratiot League Square was 5,716.65 acres (#2037), then (#2035) was addeed on the south end at 680 acres. Could get about 7,000 acres if you added his grant (#1918 & 1919) at 629 acres which is the land Clayton sits on.
Also - The land grant game was a tricky on the French played. Some were getting their grants back dated, because the Americans were calling foul, and were going to void grants. The cutoff date was to be 1800. It took all the way to 1809 to get the grants straightened out. The Americans were grabbing land too.
It was a cut throat game and of course the rich came out on top. And it didn't hurt that Charles Gratiot became Presiding Judge of the new territory.
Para. 6 - Charles Gratiot built the road "Kingshighway". Of course it wasn't paved.
Also - Could it be that Paul Benjamin moved on his tract in 1832, and lived on it. (would that be the log cabin with logs lain diagonally?), then in 1838-40, built his home on it? (A much better home?).
I'm trying to work my way out of page 7.
Lou
On Sun, 11 May 2003 Lloumera@aol.com wrote:
Para.4 - The railroad story could be a better one. I never did find the > story about the arrival of the train in 1852 to Cheltenham. There had to be a > big ceremony. The story of a bridge collapsing and killing prominent people > of St.Louis was sad, but havn't seen a big spread about it. After that, > people were afraid to ride a train that went all of 15mph.
Lou, I have posted the story of the train in recent months to the mailing list, but don't seem to have it on my web site. An over-sight. I do have some newspaper articles on it. Two actually.
I'll post them soon and sent out the url. Just very busy.
Only one mentions much of a ceremony and it isn't much, just a sort of "tea" for the rich and important who were on that first train.
The collapsed bridge was nothing to do with Cheltenham. It was much father west in Missouri when they were taking the first ride over a bridge far out.
Also - Could it be that Paul Benjamin moved on his tract in 1832, and lived > on it. (would that be the log cabin with logs lain diagonally?), then in > 1838-40, built his home on it? (A much better home?). > I'm trying to work my way out of page 7. Lou
Ah, that's the other article I totally forgot about when at Mo. Histo. lately. There is an article from the 1950s when the Gratiot house burned or was torn down -- I've forgotten which. It tells the history of the property and I do think it claims Paul Gratiot and family settled there and began farming in 1836, but I'm not positive about that date. As soon as I get that article we should be able to clear that up.
Bob
May 11, 2003
From Bob Corbett
Note that P.J. does indicate the Gratiot home on Victoria was indeed 100 years old. That would fit with my own memory of things I've read somewhere, but can't recall the source. P.J.'s book is from 1937, thus that would put the home at 1837. I had thought 1836.
Secondly, the 1866 train schedule which Fr. O'Connor publishes is interesting. Yesterday Henry Herbst donated a book on the Pacific Railroad development in Missouri from 1852 on. It has a more extensive schedule which I'll copy on-line one of these days.
But note that it would have been possible for people to live in the city and work out in Cheltenham. There were both morning and evening trains. I have no idea how much the train cost, but would guess the common laborer probably couldn't have afforded to take a train to work. But, upper level management might well have lived more in the city and still had offices out in Cheltenham.
Bob Corbett
I'll try to finish my thoughts on chapter 8.
Paragraph 1-Still cannot picture the Sulphur Springs even though the map shows it starting at Manchester. It's hard to picture it welling up through the "bed of the stream and issuing from the banks. Iknow know the land is not easy to figure, since the lake went up past wilson at one point.
The land is pretty high here, so suspect there was a lot of landfill at least from Wilson. Read Gratiots home on northrup was on a plateau of about 200 or 300 acres. So, I think Northrup must have been a whole lot lower. It's hard to imagine when your standing on Manchester and looking up to see the motel on Wilson and Hampton.
Also remember reading of people coming get a drink at what I thougt of being the Sulphur Springs Cottage, also filling up bottles of the water. Would have pictured them getting a clean drink of water(so to speak).Cant imagine people drinking that foul smelling stuff. Just imagined Sulphur Springs matching up with the street of Sulphur.
Not finished yet. Got to go. Lou
Lou Schmidt adds more:
the sulphur springs may have been more than one. and they may have known about it early on. think there is some mention of salt works, possibly the spanish and the early indians knew of it. it's like the great salt lake. evaporate the water, and you have salt. may be that sulphur water made salt like epsom salts. you can drink that too. lou.
===================
Bob Mirielli found some stuff today. His brief note says:
------------
Bob
pag. 559 Stevens Centennial History of Missouri Bradbury's Investigations 1819-called Sulphur Springs Bradbury lived near the spring....
I will send the copied page to you Bradbury was a scientist from England animals loved the sulphur water and broke fences to get to it.
Also Earliest mention of Cheltenham Hydes Hist of St. Louis pg 355
William Wibble names his country home after Gloucestershire England watering place. no date given
==================
Corbett adds: I was at Mo. Hist. Soc. again today and found several things. I do have a reference to a document which I saw (in hand witing) which is a contract that Bill Sublette made with two guys named Lewis -- Lindsay and William. They contracted on Dec. 13, 1933 to build four log cabins for $400. These were to be built on Sublette's land "...at or near the Sulphur Springs."
In another place I that an article appeard in the Missouri Gazette about Sulphur Springs on May 2, 1817, but the Mo.Hist. doesn't have the Mo. Gazette that early.
But, that 1817 days is close to when John Bradbury was here doing his research. I have just ordered his book on interlibrary loan through Webster U. But it won't come for a while since they will have to have it mailed in from some library which has it. Quite a few university librararies do have his book.
On the "birth" of Cheltenham: In the literature and even newspapers there are two spellings of his name: Wible and Wibble. He DEFINITELY took over the hotel and renamed it Cheltenham in 1852.
Note particularly that it is called variously Sulphur Spring (singular) and Sulphur Springs (straight plural, not possessive).
Bob Corbett
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