#3870: Lamour's further comments re "se bon ki ra" (fwd)

[Robert Corbett <bcorbett@netcom.com>]

From:YLamour@aol.com

dear degraff,

let me begin by thanking you  for the most
appreciated explanatory comments
you added to my piece on "se bon ki ra"... they are well taken, 
although i'd like to present further examples illustrating 
and sustaining my points ...

the adjective "bon" seems to behave like a noun
in utterances such as 
1. "bon pa dire" ... 
2. "tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) bon" ...
3. "se bon ki fè bonbon" ...
4. "tout bon nan men mèt yo" ...
5. "bon pa rete atè" ...
6. "tout bon mare nan pye tab lakay mèt yo" ...

also, if i were to use "bon" as an adjective as you
did in your comparison and contrast exercise,
i would turn "se bon ki ra" into "se bon [bagay] ki ra," 
"se bon [travay] ki ra," or "se bon [gason / fanm] ki ra" ... 

as awkward as "bon ra" may sound at first , 
it syntactically follows the corresponding pattern of
"manje ra," "lajan ra," "mango ra," and "travay ra"... 
you may add the modal "vin" for more native flavor: 
"manje vin ra," "lajan vin ra," "mango vin ra," 
and "travay vin ra" ...


now let's compare and contrast some more examples 
featuring words?"bon, mechan, malad, grangou, 
malelve, enteresan, sovaj, sansib, malveyan, parese, 
endezirab, and malpwòp"?that can switch from their function 
as adjectives to the function of nouns. On the left side of the slashes,
they are used as nouns and on the right side, as adjectives:

1. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) bon ...    / tout moun konnen ou malad 
...
2. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) mechan ... / tout moun konnen ou mechan 
...
3. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) malad ...  /tout moun konnen ou malad ...
4. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) grangou ...    /tout moun konnen ou 
grangou ...
5. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) malelve ...    /tout moun konnen ou 
malelve ...
6. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) enteresan ...  /tout moun konnen ou 
enteresan ...
7. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) sovaj ...  /tout moun konnen ou sovaj ...
8. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) sansib ... /tout moun konnen ou sansib 
...
9. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) malveyan ...   /tout moun konnen ou 
malveyan ...
10. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) parese ...    /tout moun konnen ou 
parese ...
11. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) endezirab ...  /tout moun konnen ou 
endezirab ...
12. tout moun konnen ou s'on (se yon) malpwòp ...  tout moun konnen ou 
malpwòp ...


allow me to lay down the 10 sentences from my previous
post for individuals reading this post for the first time...

1. okap pwòp ...  =  se okap ki pwòp ...
2. bondye gran ... = se bondye ki gran ...
3. satan mechan ... = se satan ki mechan ...
5. ogoun puisan ... = se ogoun ki puisan ...
6. madanm li bèl ... = se madanm li ki bèl ...
7. resin te chanpyon ... = se resin ki te chanpyon ...
8. fanm ap mennen ... = se fanm k'ap mennen ...
9. mango okap dous ... = se mango okap ki dous ...
10. datignav fanbre ... = se datignav ki fanbre ...

the utterances on the right side of the equal signs
share some common characteristics:
?"se ... ki" construction present ...
?a noun interposing "se" and "ki" ...
?an attribute or a verb following "ki" ...

the examples in the beginning of this text 
featuring "bon" in the function of
a noun convinces me to maintain that the word
"bon" in "se bon ki ra" indeed behaves like a noun
and therefore is the subject in the sentence ...

let's continue to analyze "se ... ki" and the different functions
of "bon" as a part of speech to try to cast more light in our discussions....

by the way, i wholeheartedly agree with the points 
you made in the methodological digression section;
they seem to fall in line with the grammatical structures
 of the following 7 proverbs:

1. wè pa wè, antèman pou katrè ...
2. ou mèt sote ponpe, ti mari pap monte, ti mari pap desann ...
3. sa je pa wè kè pa tounen...
4. bèlmè pa manman ...
5. renmen tout pèdi tout ...
6. bay kou bliye, pote mak sonje ...
7. enbesil ki bay, sòt ki pa pran ...

to repeat your words, these proverbs are all built " 
on some frozen patterns which
are not grammatically common in the language" ...

thanks,
yvon