13208: Denis: FW: 13185: Dorce posts: Re: 13176: Denis on Corbett and the elite discussion (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: Jude-Laure Denis <judela@rcn.com>

In a message dated 9/14/02 4:07:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Kathy Dorce
<LAKAT47@aol.com> writes:

<<Yes every society has an elite.  It is human nature to form groups and it
is also human nature to want to belong to or emulate the highest group.  But
you can't compare Haiti's elite with those of "advanced" societies.  The
reason is, the advanced societies' elite have developed a social
responsibility towards the lesser groups.  This is completely lacking in
Haiti's elite.>>

I think you've misunderstood my original post which stated:
<< Of course, every society develops an elite, be it the
 family of the tribal chieftain or that of our political and business
 leaders.  It is the nature of humans to develop distinctions among
 themselves.  This can be seen in the most, so-called "primitive" tribes
such  as the Yanomamo people of South America as well as in the
most so-called  "advanced" societies such as the United States,
the United Kingdom or even  Japan. >>

Nowhere do I compare Haiti with so-called "advanced" societies. Though I
would hazard to say that your need to designate Haiti as a non-advanced
society hints at a colonialist attitude, one in which the so-called
"non-advanced" society must be rescued from itself and its "non-advanced"
peoples by the colonial mind, which knows better what is good for it.

Nowhere do I speak of responsibility or lack of responsibility.  What I
wrote simply indicated that whether you are a Maori chieftain or a Boston
Brahmin, an elite exists.  I also think that broad statements such as the
one above in which you state that <<advanced societies' elite have developed
a social responsibility towards the lesser groups.  This is completely
lacking in Haiti's elite.>> is completely baseless as you have done no
thorough research on which you can base such an assertion.

In any society, be it ³advanced² or ³primitive² or something in  between,
there exists those elite with and without a sense of responsibility.  Look
at George W. Bush, our current President in these good old United States‹ as
a member of the elite, he does not have a sense of responsibility to
³lesser² non-elite Americans.  His sense of government is based on what is
good for the elite in this country.  On the other hand, Teddy Kennedy, a
definite member of the elite, and the rest of the Kennedy family have always
fought to help the underprivileged and I can point you to a  number of
projects they have funded to help those who can¹t help themselves.

I believe that should one do the research, one would find in Haiti both
responsible and irresponsible elite.  Thus, I recommend that you heed the
need for responsibility by not making statements out of whole cloth that are
little more than opinion based on your personalinteraction with some members
of the elite.

In fact, I would also hasten to point out that many non-elites seem to have
the same attitude towards those of their own class and also do not feel a
sense of responsibility in building a better life for all and would be quite
happy if they were able to knock off some of the elite and take their place.
One cock replaces another and nothing changes.  Aristide is a perfect
example.  Once a priest, now a bourgeois. What has really changed under his
rule?  The rich remain rich.  The poor remain poor.  Corruption continues to
be rampant.

In response to my comment that <<a debate about the existence or
non-existence of a Haitian elite leads nowhere, though it might be of
interest anthropologically.>>, you stated that:

<<There is no debate.  It exists.  And the reason it is not just an
interesting anthropological discussion is that it deeply effects the quality
of daily life in Haiti.  That these people see no responsibility for what is
happening in Haiti is shameful and I don't blame them for wanting to deny
their own existance.  I doubt that they will leave until they have rendered
Haiti uninhabitible.  I know why they won't leave now.  Somewhere else, they
would have to actually WORK for their money. And they wouldn't be king of
the hill anymore.

You can't get rid of the discussion by reducing it to nursery school
behavior.  If the elites are blocking change out of self interest, how best
to get them to see the error of their ways?  Is it possible to get them to
see that Haiti's best interests are their best interests too?  That might be
a way to make a positive contribution to solving Haiti's problems.>>

It is my contention that you are making a debate where none exists.  It is
quite clear from the totality of my post that I believe that elites exist in
every society, including our so-called ³advanced²ones.  That these people
(who again you take as a monolithic whole rather than as individuals with
their own ideas and actions) take no responsibility for what is happening in
Haiti is shameful, according to you.  But I contend that Bush and Cheney¹s
economic irresponsibility in the United States is just as shameful and has
left many families burned--from the middle class burned by Enron and
Worldcom and Halliburton to the tax cuts that amounted to little more than a
few hundred dollars for the lesser, non-elite members of this ³advanced²
society while hundreds of thousands were being given to the American elite,
sending our national deficit through the roof.  Someone with Republican
ideals would surely take issue with what I¹ve expressed here and I contend
that they would be entitled to their opinion.  However, if I make the
statement and have cold, hard facts to back it up, it would be much harder
to refute my statements.

I am not asking to get rid of the discussion but it is very much nursery
school behavior to hurl charges at a group of people as a whole with no
factual data to back it up.

In light of that, I am simply saying that people are people everywhere. Good
and bad exist in us all‹rich or poor, elite or non-elite, black or white or
other.

Elites will continue to exist no matter what.  Were you able to expatriate
them all, a new elite would arise out of the ashes and take their place.
The Haitian Revolution is a perfect example of that.  The colonialists were
burned out, but their descendants the free people of color were only too
happy to take their place and create a system similar to the one that had
been in place‹one regulated by skin color and money.

There are already enough real hurdles that need to be overcome.  This
non-debate about the responsibility or irresponsibility of the elites just
takes attention away from the really critical issues of how to make Haiti a
better place.  If you have any concrete suggestions on how to get people
more involved in bettering the reality that is Haiti, by all means let's
focus on that.  The elite are perfectly capable of taking care of
themselves.

Jude-Laure Denis Parisien