16524: Dorce: Re: 16515: Fouche: Re: 16464: Dorce: Re: 16364: (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: LAKAT47@aol.com

In a message dated 8/24/03 4:35:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, "[iso-8859-1]
Rachel Fouché" <r.fouche@verizon.net> writes:

<< Kathy, let me break down the problems I have with your postings.  You
 continually employ generalizations about groups in Haiti, even though you
 admit that this discussion tactic is facile >>
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What I said is "most Haitians" which is somewhat of a generality but with a
qualifier.  But that is not the problem you have with my postings.  It is that
you feel I have somehow accused you of something you have never done.  You
take it personally.  I won't go into the psychology of that but if it fits, wear
it, if it doesn't fit, throw it out.  I am talking about classes of people,
how is it possible to do that and not generalize?  You will have to tell me.
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>>I really don't see a forensic difference between your postings and
that of writings/speeches of Idi Amin (may he rot in Hell) or Adolf Hitler
in respective regards to the Indian and Jewish citizens of their
countries --<<
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This is even more effective in dismissing anything I have said than calling
it "Marxist rhetoric."  I must admit, no one has ever compared me or my
writings to Idi Amin and/or Hitler.  And you don't think that's a little defensive?
You make this huge leap from me wanting to hold the upper classes accountable
to wanting to see their heads on spikes around the capital.  Nothing could be
further from the truth.
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>> ...in respective regards to the Indian and Jewish citizens of their
countries -- both groups that were also part of the middle class. The
consequences of such hate speech is too high for humanity to allow it to go unchecked
anywhere. <<
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What hate speech?  Where do you see that I hate the middle class?  Because I
say they haven't done enough to help their country and the people get out of
this mess they are in?  I do not like their behavior, it's odious.  Putting
down the majority Haitian so they can feel more like the elite is not a pretty
thing.  But I don't hate them.  And this may surprise you, the poor don't hate
the middle class  or the elite.  If they were treated decently (which they are
not!), they would be grateful.  If you needed help and a poor person were
there, they would help you, no doubt.  Would the opposite be true?  Deep in your
heart you know I'm telling the truth but I'm sure it's very difficult to admit
it, even to yourself.
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>>Time to get over the romanticism of revolution, and
buckle down to the real work of reconstruction - <<
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I couldn't agree with you more.  Who is stonewalling this reconstruction?
Who is impeding progress in Haiti?  Could it be the well-funded but poorly
organized and hugely unpopular Convergence or whatever they are calling themselves
today?  Could it be that they represent what the middle class has to offer?
Why not let projects go through?  Let me hazard a guess...could it be that they
would rather see Haiti crumble than to see Aristide accomplish one thing to
help Haiti?  Am I lying or promoting hate?  No to both.  The hate is already
there.  I am advocating stopping the hate.  Let progress happen.  Love your
country more than you love your egos.  The Republicans are like the Convergence, I
guess that's why they get along so well.  I am an equal opportunity critic.
If it smells bad, I will say so, no matter who is the source.
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>> Idiots run for and are elected to office all the
time in the United States, but I don't lose sleep over it because the
bureaucractic systems mostly protect our democracy<<
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Start losing sleep, the checks and balances are gone.  If we (the people)
don't protect our democracy here, it will be a thing of the past.
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>>Haiti cannot sustain neither the best nor worst of governance because the
"democratic tradition" is toothless due to the internal rot of the systems
which should protect democracy irrespective of political ideology.  In order to
establish a true democracy, Haiti needs to be run as a technocracy with initial
limited
political involvement that would increase incrementally to a democratic
state. <<
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Here is the argument that the people of Haiti are not fit to decide what is
best for them.  The new democracy in the USA had a very rocky start as well.
The answer was not to take freedom away, it was to muddle through, making
mistakes, fixing them, all the while strengthening democracy.  Every once in a
while in our history (NOW people!), an administration tries to take the power away
from the people and put it into the hands of the wealthy (they will do what's
right for all of us...noblesse oblige).  The American people usually stand up
and take it back....which I hope is what will happen in this country soon.
You see this elitism as a good thing.  I see it as the way of the past and a
very bad past it has been for Haiti.  This is what I say to that argument.  If
you do not like a bunch of uneducated people deciding Haiti's leadership,
EDUCATE THEM.  Simple...
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>>We tend to forget that "freedom" must be earned -<<
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No Rachel, freedom is NOT earned.  In a democracy, it is an inalienable
right.  However freedom does not mean one is free to do anything they want to the
detriment of others.  It is freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of
religion.....if you break the laws of the land your rights are reduced.  You
may "earn" the loss of your freedom.  People have a right to vote for the
person they believe will make their lives better.  Isn't that what we all do?  If
the people don't trust the other candidates, it is because of their history
with them.  They KNOW their lives will not improve with these candidates.  Can
you blame them?
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>>we all live under "dictatorships" as young children until we can proove
that we understand the awesome burden that "freedom" entails.<<
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You are speaking of children living in the dictatorship of their parents,
until they grow up and become adults themselves.  Do you really want to use this
analogy, Rachel?  Because you are making my point for me very well.  This
paternalistic, humiliating, insulting way of looking at the majority Haitian is
the very thing that is stopping progress from taking hold in Haiti.  Those of
you who do not hate the poor for their blackness, their Kreyol-ness, their
Vodou-ness, think of them kindly as children who need to be told what to do and how
to live their lives, for their own good of course.  Both positions are dead
wrong.  No good will come of this.  Until the upper classes, including the
middle class gives the poor Haitian the dignity and respect he deserves and a SEAT
AT THE TABLE....there will be no progress.  This is why Lavalas is angry with
the others.  There is no place for them at the table because they are not
deemed worthy of governing.  Lavalas is fighting for their existence.  If they
didn't have deadly force used against them, they wouldn't use it in return.
There would be no revolution if the upper classes weren't fighting to regain the
power they feel they have lost with this "democracy."
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>>Members of this class have had access to education
lasting longer than five years and past the elementary level.  There are two
subclasses within the Middle Class, which can be termed as partial
sustaining ("lower middle class") and fully sustaining ("upper middle
class").  Partial Sustaining Middle Class may also not be able to
consistently sustain themselves or their family, but additional means of
outside familial support prevents them from falling into the Lower Class.<<
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This is a very generous definition of lower middle class.  In the US these
would be lower class, no question.  First, some of the people who have outside
familial support do not have the education you say qualifies them for middle
class status.  And often the support is life long, as those of you sending money
to Haiti can attest.  I would say the middle class in Haiti are those living
in multi-room houses with plumbing, telephone, servants, a means to travel to
and from the US.  The doctors, engineers and so forth, those you describe as
sustainable, those are what I would call middle class.
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>>Fully Sustaining Middle
Class members have had to flee Haiti due to political persecution and
inability to develop consistent institutions needed to protect the human,
economic, and social rights of all Haitians.<<
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Middle Class members had to flee Haiti due to political persecution...from
Aristide?  Or are you including the Duvalier years?  I submit to you that if
middle class people moved to the US during Aristide's terms, they were moving due
to economic reasons.  More money, more opportunities here than there.
Political persecution, who?  And you must name someone who was not trying to
overthrow the government there.
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>>Yup, why think these porch monkeys can run their own country?  They don't
even like each other!  Especially the middle class ones -- let's make them
some beautiful tire "necklaces" and our larger problems like food,
education, health will magically resolve themselves. Sig heil, Kathy!
You've solved the Haitian Problem with your astute analysis of the porch
monkey -- oops, I meant Haitian -- psyche!<<
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These are your words and never mine.  You call me a Nazi and yet your
solution is the totalitarian one....may I remind you that this way of ruling has been
Haiti's history and it didn't work then and it won't work now.  I think the
answer is for all groups to work together....what do you think the problem with
that is?  Answer: The upper classes' prejudice of the lower classes.  They do
not want to be equals in any way, shape or form.  They want to sit at the
table and EXCLUDE the majority class Haitian.  This is no longer an option and I
am not the one telling Haitians how they should govern themselves...they
decided that themselves.  If I have offended you, I am sorry.  But I will say what
I believe regardless.  I think self examination is very healthy.  No growth is
possible without it.  I assure you I have never even had the words "porch
monkey" in my consciousness until you put them there.  If you think that is the
kind of person I am, you are mistaken.  And defensive...

Kathy Dorce~