19287: Esser: PBS NewsHour (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: D. E s s e r <torx@joimail.com>

PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer
http://www.pbs.org/newshour

Feb 26th 2004

Transcript

[...]

RAY SUAREZ: Joining me now to discuss U.S. involvement in the Haiti
crisis are two members of Congress: Charles Rangel, Democrat of New
York; and Mark Foley, Republican of Florida.

And, Congressman Rangel, whether or not you agree with Secretary
Powell's analysis about whether the U.S. did enough in the past, is
it doing enough today in Haiti?

The Bush administration's stance

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: I was really surprised to hear those comments by
Secretary Powell. As you know I was with him and Dr. Rice and
President Bush yesterday and he seemed to underscore support for the
rule of law in that he was waiting for the opposition to sign off on
the accords that would include allowing them to appoint a prime
minister, but he made it abundantly clear that he was going to
respect the term and the fact that Aristide was elected.

Now I would hate to have a friend that sounds like Aristide has in
Powell today when he says, while he realizes he was elected, that
it's time for him to seriously discuss what he should be doing.

Do you know the opposition... we're not just talking about legitimate
people that have serious concerns about the administration of
Aristide. We're talking about military people that General Powell
helped chase out of Haiti. We're talking about thugs and criminals
that have weapons that are killing people. We should be there talking
about peace.

Why in the world would the opposition agree to sit down and agree to
the accords and not stick to their position in saying Aristide must
step down if the secretary of state of the United States of America
is saying that Aristide should seriously consider it? No, we're not
doing what we should.

RAY SUAREZ: Just to see if I understand you, you're saying there's
been a change in tone in Secretary Powell... on Secretary Powell's
part just since yesterday?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: Yes, every time you've heard from Secretary
Powell, notwithstanding his disappointments in the administration of
President Aristide, he's always said that the United States and the
international community will respect the fact that he will be in
office until he's elected. Now I heard something about the French
saying that he should step down and what not. But I have confidence
that my country was saying that the man was elected and that we were
going to make compromises to make certain that the opposition would
have some say in the administration.

But I just heard what Colin Powell said, and while he said the same
thing -- that the man is elected and that should be respected -- he
said the man should seriously consider stepping down, which gives
nothing but fuel to the opposition which includes thugs, criminals
and people that General Powell chased out of Haiti.

If -- I just talked with Aristide and he truly believes that the
United States and the international community, if they don't come in
and stop the violence, if they wait for the opposition to agree to
the accords that he has already agreed to, he will be dead and they
will take over the palace. I talked with President Aristide just two
hours ago and I talked with his wife three hours ago. And they are
concerned. Our lack of doing anything but waiting for the opposition
means that we are against President Aristide.

RAY SUAREZ: Congressman Foley, let me turn to you now. Do you agree
with your colleague from New York's analysis that the Bush
administration is starting to back away from Aristide and is it the
proper time or the proper thing to be doing?

REP. MARK FOLEY: Well, the administration was in fact trying to seek
a settlement whereby Mr. Aristide could remain, in fact, in power for
the remainder of his term. Regrettably we've heard from a number of
other coalition partners that are unwilling to put one soldier on the
ground if it means propping up this government. So we've got a
difference of opinion. Charlie's right. The French did in fact say
they wanted him to go. And that's ironic because the French love
everyone so for them to demand Aristide leave is just a bit
interesting.

Now Mr. Aristide has had his problems. We've given opportunity to try
and rebuild that country. Many of us were part of hopefully seeing
Mr. Aristide's government, in fact, bring about some reforms -- have
the police department protecting the citizens rather than killing
them. We've noticed an infiltration of drug dealers and other things
on Haiti. So, Charlie and I both agree that the crisis now is about
saving lives first, solving the problem. We were hopeful that the
insurgents would in fact agree to a shared power arrangement. I know
that's maybe not in the best interest of Mr. Aristide, but one in
which I would end some of the turmoil.

But the administration has been very, very insistent on not exactly
throwing themselves in the middle of this crisis because they wanted
others closer in proximity to lead the battle with us -- the
Bahamians, the Jamaicans, the Dominican Republic, the Canadians and
the French. So rather than saber rattling and telling the Haitian
people this is how you're going to do it and this is the way we
insist it be done, the administration has tried to take a careful
approach by consulting allies talking quietly behind the scenes to
the United Nations.

Mr. Noriega, under Secretary Powell has gone down there last
Saturday. He and I traveled there several years ago together. He
knows the area and knows the region and spent a lot of time
personally invested in trying to bring these factions together.

I will agree with what Charlie said. While we're signaling Aristide
should go, it does fuel the flames, if you will, of those opposition
leaders who are storming Port-au-Prince as we speak or close to it.
So I don't want to send out mixed signals but what the administration
tried to do initially was try to find a balance, find a way out of
this crisis so more people's lives would not be lost in the streets
of Haiti.

Should the United States intervene?

RAY SUAREZ: Well, Congressman Rangel, the three corners of this
triangle seem to not be willing to break the impasse. President
Aristide says he won't share power with the non-armed opposition. And
both the armed rebels and the political opponents say they don't see
a future for the country that includes President Aristide in it. So
does somebody have to give?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: Up until yesterday, that was not the case.
Aristide has said and continues to say and Secretary Powell and Dr.
Rice agreed that he was prepared to share power as outlined by the
accords that were set out by the international community in Jamaica
and the ones that were supported by Secretary Powell and the one that
Mr. Foley just agreed that should be done. So he agreed before. He
agreed in giving up the prime minister which has even more power than
he and that this should happen.

The problem is that the international community and Secretary Powell
were waiting for the opposition to agree to this. They haven't
agreed. They're insistent that President Aristide step down. They're
not going to the table and they'll be winners just by doing nothing.
So what is it that we're asking Aristide to do? He's done everything.

RAY SUAREZ: Congressman Foley, is there a future in your view for a
Haitian government and some stable governance there that includes
President Aristide?

REP. MARK FOLEY: I hope we can find a solution to this. If it
includes Mr. Aristide staying, I'm all for it. If it includes he has
to leave based on the international partners, so be it. The one thing
I want to see happen is for this country to be calm, for us as
Americans to join together with the international community to
rebuild this beautiful country. They need help. They want our
assistance but we can't go it alone.

So my desire is-- and I think Mr. Aristide is getting the message--
he's going to leave by a Lear jet or he'll leave in a body bag. These
people are getting close. There's no sense in him risking his life in
Port-au-Prince based on the current scenario.

And I can't see an end to the crisis. We can't intervene and jump in
the middle of this right now until we get backing from the UN. I
think that would be the next appropriate step. They're meeting now as
we're speaking. Hopefully they will come with guidance in the morning
or by noon tomorrow. Hopefully that won't be too late to step into
the middle of the breach and try and solve this problem.

What role should other countries play?

RAY SUAREZ: So you're saying the United States shouldn't jump into
the middle of this but if it's waiting for the U.N., can it sit back
and watch an armed group take control of the capital and topple this
president?

REP. MARK FOLEY: We can't wait much longer, but when you opened your
piece your reporter on the ground there suggested the insurgents had
not seemed to be rallying to take over Port-au-Prince. So we're
hoping that they're remaining on the outskirts of the town. Maybe
there's a discussion going on as we speak that will help keep the
flames from burning any brighter. We just simply want to protect the
people there on the ground.

So I'm prepared to look at any option but I know the State
Department, I know Secretary Powell and I know the president and
others are committed to a resolution that will hopefully end the
struggle in Haiti.

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: I'm now convinced after listening to Mr. Foley
and Mr. Powell that the United States are on the side of the
opposition and they want President Aristide either to leave by a jet
or leave in a body bag and I'm telling you, if I was in the
opposition, I would say we won. Stay cool. We got this president
where we want and we don't have to wait for an election. We'll get
rid of him and the international community will support it.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, what would you rather see happen than that scenario
that you just spun out?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: This United States knows how to stop the
violence. When we went there before we didn't lose one member of the
armed forces. Not anyone was injured. Not by accident.

Police Commissioner Kelly of the city of New York trained those
people and he said they didn't stay long enough to fully train them.
They're not armed. We've got an arms embargo and we got a bunch of
cowards with M-16s that were always against Aristide and always
against democracy.

If we just had an international presence saying drop your guns, then
the Aristide supporters would drop their machetes and we would not
have the bloodshed. Then we'll have a little longer to determine
whether or not Aristide should accommodate the accords and integrate
the opposition until his government.

But if we do nothing, what we have said is we didn't like Aristide,
he should go and let the rebels do what they want. As long as there's
no agreement to go to the table and to insist that Aristide has to
go, then I think that Mr. Foley's right. They're waiting for the body
bag or for him to go into exile. And that is not what the United
States should be supporting, that duly elected people be chased out
of office by a bunch of rogues and thieves.

RAY SUAREZ: Congressman Foley, this has to be really quick but what's
wrong with Representative Rangel's suggestion that this could be over
very quickly with a very small expenditure of American power -- very
quickly, please.

REP. MARK FOLEY: I just wish they were more consistent. They didn't
want us in Iraq but they want us in Liberia and they want us in
Haiti. I agree we could play a role but we can't go it alone. We need
the French, we need the Canadians, we need the Jamaicans; we need
others to at least lead the parade as we help to liberate at least
from the stress today the crisis in Haiti.

RAY SUAREZ: Gentlemen, thank you both.

REP. CHARLES RANGEL: I'm surprised you would even bring up the war in
Iraq.

RAY SUAREZ: Gentlemen, thanks a lot.
.