23960: Munger: (radio and text) Democracy Now! Interview with Rev. Jean-Juste (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: Amber Munger <epolicy@bellsouth.net>

You can listen to the interview at democracynow.org

Monday, December 20th, 2004
Freed Haitian Priest Gerard Jean-Juste: Aristide Supporters "Are Not
Only Targeted, We Are Being Chased"

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Haitian priest Father Gerard Jean-Juste joins us in our firehouse
studio to talk about his imprisonment, the continuing chaos in Haiti,
the role of the U.S. and the international community and much more.
Jean-Juste was released Nov. 29 after being imprisoned for seven weeks
by the interim Haitian government. We also speak with human rights and
immigration lawyer Tom Griffin, who recently traveled to Haiti to
document human rights abuses. [includes rush transcript]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We take a look at the situation in Haiti where political violence and
insecurity continues to rock the Caribbean nation. The interim
government has come under fire for human rights abuses ever since
assuming power last March. 700 political prisoners languish in Haitian
jails and pro-democracy demonstrations are held in cities throughout
the country.

This weekend, the London Observer reported that scores of prisoners
were massacred during a prison riot earlier this month. According to
official reports, prisoners in a three-story cell block called
"Titanic" had rioted, breaking free from their cells, setting fire to
mattresses and brandishing water pipes as weapons. Prison guards called
in a special police unit to help put down the uprising. Officials later
said that seven prisoners had been killed and more than 40 detainees
and guards wounded.

But according to the London Observer, this is a gross understatement.
Witnesses told the paper, the interim Haitian government is concealing
a savage bloodbath in which up to 110 prisoners were killed by police
and guards. At the time, Secretary of State Colin Powell was visiting
interim Haitian President Boniface Alexandre at the national palace.

One prisoner told the Observer police opened fire on the detainees, and
then went from cell to cell, forcing prisoners into a passageway and
methodically executing them.

Prisoners and police say the riot was motivated by the decision to
transfer some detainees to another penitentiary, combined with growing
frustration at the slow progress of their legal cases. Only 17 of
around 1,100 prisoners at the national penitentiary have been convicted
of a crime, and many detainees have not seen a judge.

The day before the prison massacre, Father Gerard Jean-Juste - perhaps
Haiti's most famous political prisoner - was released after serving
seven weeks in jail. No warrant for his arrest was ever produced, nor
was any evidence linking him to any crime. Father Jean-Juste traveled
to the U.S. this last week and gave a press conference in New York. He
joins us in our firehouse studio. He are also joined by Tom Griffin, a
human rights and immigration lawyer who recently traveled to Hatiti to
document human rights abuses.


*	Rev. Gerard Jean-Juste, Roman Catholic priest in Haiti who was
recently released from prison.
*	Thomas Griffin, human rights and immigration lawyer who recently
traveled to Haiti to document human rights abuses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUSH TRANSCRIPT

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AMY GOODMAN: Father Jean-Juste traveled to the US this last week and
held a news conference in New York. He joins us in our firehouse studio
today, along with Tom Griffin, a human rights and immigration lawyer
from Philadelphia, who went to Haiti to document human rights abuses.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now!

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Thank you very much.

THOMAS GRIFFIN: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: Well it's good to see you out of jail, Father Jean-Juste?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: I am happy and I am very thankful to everyone
who has been involved directly or indirectly for this exercise of my
human right to be free.

AMY GOODMAN: Why were you arrested?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: There was no motivation that I know that could
stand, and I was [inaudible] why I was feeding hundreds of children and
young adults. They told me that I am under arrest, while I was inside
the rectory at the moment. I told them, no, according to the concord
that -- the agreement between Haiti and the church, you cannot arrest
me that way. I told them that. They refused to listen. They really
grabbed me forcefully, and threw me into their vehicle, and ran away
with me, arriving at the police station in Petionville, where I was in
jail for over a week. And they told me that -- I saw them writing on
the book, arrested for disturbing the public peace. That's what was
written at the police station. But what was hurting me the most that
day, why some of us in Haiti are trying to help the most desperate
people, and they came, the police, the repressive forces from the
government, from the de facto government, came and shot at our people.
Three children have been shot, one girl and two boys. That's hurt so
much. So, I hope that all of us who are trying to appease the
communities, to appease the people, I think instead of brutalizing us,
instead of arresting us arbitrarily, they could congratulate us for
helping them, because I think that by feeding the people, by taking
care of the children, by educating them, we are helping the government.
We are helping. We are helping the country, and instead, the government
is going after those providing basic human needs to the people. This is
crazy.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think is the motivation of the government to
have you silenced? You were in jail for seven weeks. What ultimately
got you out?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: I went through the court system after a month
staying in jail without seeing a judge, and the judge looked at the
file, and thought it was frivolous. There was nothing. They said, hey,
you have been accused of plotting against the government. I said what?
Plotting against the government? Of the state, even worse. I said, what
did I do? Where is the proof? There was no proof. I couldn't see any
proof. At that time the judge said, hey, I have to order your release.
The judge did order my release, and then the commissioner, the one who
is responsible for signing -- approving the judge's decision and the
commissioner stayed about two weeks before he -- it is supposed to take
five days -- he stayed two weeks before accepting the reality that I
should be free. So, finally, by November 29, I was freed, while I was
arrested on October 13.

AMY GOODMAN: When you heard about what happened in the penitentiary
right after you were released, what is your response?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: My response is this: the jails are too
overcrowded. While I was at the main penitentiary in Port-au-Prince,
there were -- that's a jail that's supposed to take 600 prisoners, and
we were over 1,200, not to say 1,400. And it's too much, and detention
is high within the jail, and that's the reason why right now I’m
appealing to the de facto government to make a humanitarian gesture.
Too many people, too many youngsters have been arbitrarily arrested,
and forget -- they are being forgotten in jail. Do something. Release
them during this holiday season. That's my appeal to them.

AMY GOODMAN: We have to break. When we come back, we'll continue
speaking with Reverend Gerard Jean-Juste, and Thomas Griffin, who is a
human rights and immigration lawyer from Philadelphia, who has recently
returned from Haiti with some horrific photographs and documentation of
what he saw there.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking about the situation in Haiti right now with
Father Gerard Jean-Juste, usually in Haiti. Just came up to the United
States for a week, was held in prison at the national penitentiary for
seven weeks. There is now a report in the papers of a massacre that
took place there on December 1, on the day that Colin Powell, the U.S.
Secretary of State, was in Haiti visiting with the president. It was
when President Bush was in Canada, meeting with the prime minister in
Canada. One of the first issues they talked about, as well, was Haiti.
We're also joined by Thomas Griffin, who is a human rights and
immigration lawyer who has recently returned from Haiti. Thomas
Griffin, can you talk about what you saw in Haiti, and what you
documented?

THOMAS GRIFFIN: I tried to document as much as I could, just in
Port-au-Prince, and my focus was mostly on the poor neighborhoods and
that would be what normally are call the slum neighborhoods. That's
where everyone lives in Port-au-Prince, which would be City Soleil, La
Saline, Bel Air, and Ft. National. Those are the neighborhoods that
have been under siege by the Haitian national police almost on a daily
basis. And we had known that no reporters were going in. Either they
were reluctant to do it or they were actually being blocked from
getting in. My main goal was to get in there and document it and
photograph what was happening, the violence by the Haitian national
police backed by the U.N. civil police forces and the U.N. peacekeeping
forces, which are two U.N. units that actually tear into the
neighborhoods with their firearms and their tanks. I also tried to get
into as many jails as I could, photograph prisoners and the conditions
that they're in, and get a sense of whether they had seen a judge yet,
or whether they had been beaten during the arrest or while they were in
prison.

AMY GOODMAN: Let's talk about the context here. I mean, you have
President Jean-Bertrand Aristide ousted on February 29 in this
bicentennial year of Haiti. He now is in exile with his wife and
children in South Africa. And you have the U.S.-backed leader in place,
Gerard Latortue. What is he doing about the situation? I also want to
ask Father Jean-Juste about this.

THOMAS GRIFFIN: I had no sense that he was doing anything but maybe
taking directions from outside. Both people in the government, when I
was talking to government ministers, they were receiving calls from
Canada during my interview of them, and they were complaining that
Latortue wasn't strong enough, wasn't taking enough action. I have
talked to big business leaders who you would think would be happy with
Latortue who are very angry at him because he's not killing fast enough
and he’s not getting rid of this problem of the poor people demanding
Aristide's return in a fast enough way. A third component is the army,
which is coming back. General Ravix --

AMY GOODMAN: The Haitian army, which President Aristide had disbanded.

THOMAS GRIFFIN: In 1995. They're back. They're fully armed. They're
marching. They're drilling every day right in Port-au-Prince, in the
Petionville neighborhood where they're supported by rich residents and
businessmen there, who provide them food, clothing, and a place to
sleep. They’re in a very big apartment building there during their
drills. But General Ravix himself said he's upset at Latortue and
during a conference with me in an interview, he said that he gave
veiled threats that there might be another coup unless Latortue gets a
little bit more heavy-handed with the insecurity problem.

AMY GOODMAN: What evidence did you have of U.S. involvement? I mean,
President Aristide was very clear. We documented his trip back from the
Central African Republic where he had been flown in a U.S. jet when he
was put out of the country February 29. He said he was the victim of a
modern-day kidnapping, in the service of a coup d’etat backed by the
United States. What about the U.S. presence in Haiti?

THOMAS GRIFFIN: I didn't go down there exactly to find that out, I was
more documenting the human rights abuses. But in the course of my
interviews, I was able to uncover that a U.S. foundation paid by
U.S.A.I.D., known as IFES, which stands for the International
Foundation for Electoral Systems, had basically been in Haiti for
almost -- since Aristide was re-elected in 2000, working to undermine
the government by coalescing various sectors of society against him by
what they called a sensitization program. They started with judges and
lawyers, and their program, which was set up with seminars both in the
United States and here, was to teach these groups that Aristide had
co-opted the judicial system, that he was the reason for the corruption
in the judicial system and the reason why people weren't being
prosecuted that were committing human rights abuses. So they had sort
of many tentacles that went out to different groups. They brought in
the media, so that there was a campaign against Aristide in the media.
They brought in human rights groups and actually set up a hotline at
one of the human rights groups to take only complaints about
pro-Aristide violence and that was then publicized in the media, that
they had co-opted, and also at the U.S. embassy in and other agencies.
So, and that group ultimately, after a couple of years of work, formed
what is known as the group of 184, and that became the main opposition
force politically in -- for Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

AMY GOODMAN: Who heads up IFES?

THOMAS GRIFFIN: In the United States, I believe the chairman of the
board of directors is a man named Richard Hybl; in Haiti it's a man
named Amami Sola* that controls all the programs down there.

AMY GOODMAN: And Richard Hybl, what are his connections?

THOMAS GRIFFIN: I don't know much. I just did a quick search of his
name when I came back from my investigation, and I cannot remember
everything. I know he sits on another board of International Republican
Institute known as IRI, who has been notorious for trying to undo the
Aristide government both, I believe, in the -- during the first coup in
1991 as well as this one.

AMY GOODMAN: Father Jean-Juste, what about these connections?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: I am really sad to see that so many right wing
element within the President Bush administration had participated in
the coup d’etat against President Aristide on February 29. Also for me
having lived in the U.S. for many years where many of us in this
country are calling for respect, for democracy, put into practice the
principal of democracy, I think it's really very sad to see that in
Haiti, while we're trying to make a democracy to take place, we're
calling for education of the people. Here we are, and some right wing
elements who dislike our President Aristide, and they plot against him,
they support of some groups of people, and to go against the will of
the people in Haiti and the start our democracy that was an infant at
that time. So, I'm calling upon them. It's not too late now to change.
It's not too late now to correct the wrong they have done to this black
nation. So, I hope that in this second term, President Aristide could
come back to Haiti and finish his mandate. His mandate will end by
February 7, 2006. So, if we keep acting that way, every time we have an
elected official, an elected president, and some other country may not
like the president and decide to plot against the president, and get
rid of him, so we are killing the democracy everywhere. Killing it in
Haiti, it's been that are you killing the democracy in the United
States of America, because right now what is happening. Whatever you
see take place in any corner of the world can be repeated in any other
corner of the world.

AMY GOODMAN: In the first coup against President Aristide, when he was
first ousted in 1991, to 1994, it turned out the U.S. was very much
involved with this. Alan Nairn writing in The Nation magazine exposed
the C.I.A./D.I.A. funding for the head of FRAPH, the paramilitary death
squad responsible for so many deaths, Emmanuel Constant, on the payroll
of the D.I.A. This was a time when the C.I.A. was headed by James
Woolsey. It's one of the things that brought him down as director of
central intelligence at the time. Now he had been a fierce proponent
actually for the invasion of Iraq, James Woolsey. And this is rarely
raised about him. But what about why the U.S. continues to be involved
in this way?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Understand the first coup was taken also under
a Republican administration, then the Democratic administration was
followed, and they corrected it. And that's now I don't see how they're
going to correct it, because we have a Republican administration being
followed by same elements, unless there is some change. But I hope that
these officials now who now could look. Look what they have done to
Haiti, it is broken into pieces. Now we have to collect the pieces, and
allow the people to come together, and I don't see any way now unless
President Aristide is restored to power and democracy has been
corrected. The same way we do it in 1994.

AMY GOODMAN: The Prime minister, Yvon Neptune, remains in jail?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Yes indeed. The legal prime minister is in jail
while the illegal one, the de-facto one, the imposed one, is the one
running around and dividing the Haitian society, and being very rude in
his speeches.

AMY GOODMAN: What is the U.N. doing about this, with the U.N. forces
also in Haiti, led by the Brazilians?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: That's another point. Where the U.N. is
supposed to be a respectable institution, international institution,
and in that case, we find the U.N. on the side of the repressive
government, and the people cannot understand it at all.

AMY GOODMAN: What did you find in Haiti with the U.N. forces, what are
known as the blue helmets?

THOMAS GRIFFIN: Right. There's two groups of U.N. forces there. One is
the civilian police, and they're basically police officers from all
over the world, who wear their local uniforms, but put on a blue
basketball hat not a helmet, usually, unless there's an operation going
on. And they shadow the police. Their job is to go down there and
provide support and observe them and correct them if they're doing
something wrong. That's not happening with them. The other force is the
peacekeeping force that goes around in big tanks, which they call
armored personnel vehicles. They have mounted automatic firearms on the
top of the tank, and you will see the heads, the blue helmets, sticking
out and everyone has got firearms. What they do is sort of piggyback
and protect the police but they legitimize them. What you have is one
of the worst police forces in the world probably untrained and very
scared, and whatever they do, the U.N. is just backing them up. So the
U.N. is shooting a lot of people because the Haitian police are
shooting a lot of people. It has really become a big mess. I talked to
one of the civilian police chiefs in Bel Air and he said I came down
here to coach, to train, and to observe. He said, all I'm doing is
participating in guerrilla warfare every day. I'm scared and where are
the reporters? So, it's a mess, and it's sort of covered up because the
U.N.'s down there, but I don't see them doing a very good job.

AMY GOODMAN: You spent time at the morgue.

THOMAS GRIFFIN: Yeah. I snuck into the morgue. They're not letting
people into the morgue anymore. Because the bodies have been piling up
so much. And so many human rights observers have been seeing the
bodies. They don't let people into the morgue. The second part of it
is, I talked to some morgue workers, and they said that the police are
now even skipping the morgue phase. So when there is what they call an
operation in one of the poor neighborhoods and there's a lot of bodies,
the police just take the bodies and instead of dumping them at the
morgue, bring them to the morgue only to get dump truck, which they
load up with the bodies and they head off to a secret burial ground
which hasn't been discovered yet.

AMY GOODMAN: Father Jean-Juste, what do the people say about this in
Haiti, and what is their feeling about the United States, about the
U.N.?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Not toward, the feeling is not directed toward
the United States, because people in Haiti, they have many
Haitian-Americans who live here, and they are friendly to many U.S.
citizens, and there is a great relationship growing between the people,
the U.S. people, and Haiti people. What is wrong, what we understand is
wrong is to see that some elements of the Republican administration
conducting illegal activities by destroying democracy in a black
nation. The things they're doing in Haiti, they won't do in the United
States. There would be outrage in the United States by doing what
they're doing in the Haiti.

AMY GOODMAN: What was U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell doing in
Haiti?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: He visited Haiti, and we have left with the
impression that he's strongly backing up the repressive system, the
de-facto, the unconstitutional, the illegal government that is now
running Haiti.

AMY GOODMAN: When President Jean-Bertrand Aristide was flying back, had
been brought back by this U.S. delegation led by Congress member Maxine
Waters from the Central African Republic, going at that time to Jamaica
where the Prime minister had invited him to stay until he decided his
next move, ultimately he went to South Africa. As we were flying over
the Atlantic, we were documenting this trip, President Aristide was
talking about the situation, and as we flew into Barbados and
ultimately to Jamaica, we heard that Colin Powell, that Condoleezza
Rice, that they were threatening, and Rumsfeld as well, that Aristide
was not to return to the western hemisphere, that the U.S. ambassador
to Haiti, Foley, was saying that Aristide was not to come within 150
miles of Haiti. Why?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: This is what I cannot understand. One official,
some official, will decide for a nation, and we are talking about
democracy in the United States. Can we accept that in the United
States? That two or three individuals take a decision and impose the
one thing to the people, and make us suffer, and -- for people in the
United States not it react? I think that this is abuse of power from
some officials of the United States. They are abusing the power and
repressing this black nation, and why are we trying to educate people
about education, they should come for our help. They should support us
in that direction, as we are trying to be free to enjoy democracy, to
make the democracy better for all people, and then there we go no, we
should stop that.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel Aristide supporter like yourself are being
targeted?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Yes. We are not only targeted, we are being
chased. We are being chased. And in the jail over half of the
population are arbitrarily arrested, and kept in jail, and most of them
are Aristide supporters. One day I witnessed why a bloodbath took
place. There are about -- I counted at least 12 broken heads. 12 broken
heads by my cell. By my cell. You should see the [inaudible] was
covered for about many meters, and then among them there was a very
young man, a great artist from Bel Air, and he composed two beautiful
songs while was in jail. I said, what happened to you? How come they
beat you so badly. He said, because I composed this song, these songs
are in favor of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. I still recognize him
as the president and they beat him that badly and broke his head. And
fractured some of his limbs.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think now needs to be done?

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: What is to be done now is for the U.S.
government and for the so-called friends -- the French government and
Canadian government to correct the wrongdoing they have done to the
Haitian people. Look at it now. Haiti is not -- there is no life. There
is no life. People are starving, and we cannot help them. Those of us
who can find help to provide, it's very difficult. I was Aristide and I
am lucky to get freed. There are many others like me who have been
helping the Haitians, particularly the poorest ones, the children and
some elderly. These people are still in jail. I have a very good friend
I met in jail. He was in Bel Air, known Nono. Nono is a mechanic man,
helping people in trade. Helping the young people in other areas. They
come in our city because he is helping. That's the way it is. We met
many of the persons, great men in Haiti, great citizens who have been
helping, and they are now perishing. They are now languishing in jails.

AMY GOODMAN: Father Gerard Jean-Juste, I want to thank you very much
for being with us, as well Thomas Griffin, human rights and immigration
lawyer. We will post the pictures on the website, some we have shown on
the TV broadcast of the show. Others we will just place there for
people to see. I want to thank you both for --

THOMAS GRIFFIN: Thank you very much.

REV. GERARD JEAN-JUSTE: Thank you for your support. Thank you. Thank
you, everyone.

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Amber Lynn Munger
Environmental Defense
(828) 258-6424