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a161: Re: a152: Petit-Go‚ve: Pina answers Chamberlain (fwd)
From: kevin pina <email@example.com>
gc: It really is chilling when people dabble in such twisted logic.
>A man is beaten up, does not die, a mob believes he has died,
>so they chop the head off someone else who had nothing to
>do with the beating, and so the killers are morally absolved
>because they were "provoked."
kp: No one called that grounds for moral absolution and if you recall I said
the events do not justify such a horrible murder. It seems to me that you
are projecting once again in an effort to justify your own position. You can
make your point without so much spiddle.
gc:You know perfectly well, Kevin, in your desperation to bend
>over backwards to justify your "ideology," that this has little to
>do with that tired old word "provocation" (or an even tireder
>one, "manipulation," which is graven in stone above the
>entrance to the Church of the Perpetual Conspiracy) and
>everything to do with an unfortunate culture of intolerance.
kp: It seems your assumption is that we are all stupid and you are the only
one with an inside track on the truth. I try not to confuse ideology with
honest attempts to interpret history. I have read many interpretations of
historical events with which I have disagreed but have found myself the
wiser for having made the effort.
Violence by the lumpen poor in Haiti historically precedes both Lavalas and
Aristide. Certainly you are old enough to remember what happened when that
genie was first let out of the bottle following the departure of Baby Doc.
In the popular lexicon of Haiti it is known as dechokaj 1 and the anger
released by the population against the Ton Ton Macoutes was not a pretty
I am certain you remember the spontaneous uprising against Lafontant's
attempted coup in 1991 known by many as dechokaj 2. The reaction of the
population in defending their fledgling democracy was swift in extracting
retribution. What followed was an explosion of anger that rocked the very
foundations of Haitian society. Again, it was not Aristide or any party
structure that organized this reaction, that anger came from an awakening of
the poor majority to defend their democratic rights.
These are a few examples of the historical roots of the violence we recently
experienced. There was no master plan then just as there is no master plan
now. If you operate from the assumption that poor illiterate people are not
smart enough to defend their own interests than you will never understand
what is really going on on in Haiti. From my perspective it is the people
who try to portray Aristide as the puppet master and Lavalas as some mafia
organization who are the real "conspiracy theorists". What do you make of
the Convergence's conspiracy theories concerning the three weeks of hell
before the November 26 presidential elections? What about their calling the
attempted coups of July 28 and December 17 "staged" events by Lavalas? Of
course you would never consider those "conspiracy theories" or label them
such given that they orginate from such "true democrats" with a broad base
of support in Haiti.
gc:It recalls your earlier contemptuous dismissal here (18 Nov)
>of Reporters Without Borders as a "single issue organisation
>(which) we are not sure whence they receive their orders."
>One which you say "appeared overnight on the Haitian
>political scene whose only result has been to add further
>confusion ... I hope we have reached the 15th second of
>their self-generated fame."
>It only took a second to gun down Jean Dominique, which is
>why RWB/RSF has been so active recently. But they have no
>right or reason to speak up about this because it causes
>"confusion," you say...
>RWB has been active in Haiti for several years, by the way,
>working with some of those visa-grabbing liars and crooks
>Kathy Grey is telling us about...
kp: I stand by my dismissal of any positive role played by RSF. From my
perspective, they are here simply to add legitimacy to the growing attacks
against Lavalas. Prior to their involvement, it was clear to everyone that
Haiti was experiencing a period of open communication and press freedoms. If
you listen to the radio today you will still hear an avalanche of negative
critisizm, including attacks against Aristide for "staging the coup". In the
end that does not seem to matter to RSF as much as pursuing an agenda that
ultimately gives creedence to the Convergence's position that Aristide is a
dictator at the head of a violent political organization. I can understand
your wanting to defend them as this seems to mirror your own position.
gc: For better or worse, that's you and me, Kevin, with our
>privileges and ability to just drive to the airport and buy
>a ticket out when things get tough. _You_ can publicly
>dissent from a regime and then can just take off, instead
>of having to wait at home (or somewhere else in Haiti)
>until some guys turn up to beat the shit out of you (or
>worse) because they've been told by someone else
>you "provoked" them. This aspect just adds a tiny dash
>of food-for-thought to your defence of the "provoked"
>mob in Petit-Goave and your dismissal of the misdeeds
>of those in power.
kp: Again, you seem to be projecting your own fears. Suffice it to say I do
not suffer from the same fears you do. I do understand, however, that a
whole lot of pissed off poor people can be really scary to some. A whole lot
of pissed off BLACK poor people is even scarier to many.
kp:I understand their anger and determination after feeling
cheated by the OAS, the US, and the "international
gc:Never by their own rulers, of course...
>Now _that's_ "manipulation" -- deftly redirecting the blame.
kp: From where I am standing it appears you are the one "deftly redirecting
the blame" to suit your own narrow interpretation of history. Anyone who has
dared to mention the broader historical context has had to suffer dismissive
labeling and name calling. Give it a break and just make your argument. We
really are listening.
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