14981: Fouche: Re: 14909: Dorce: Re: 14786: Fouche: Re: 14772: Dorce: Re: 14765: Edouard:Haitian-Americans... (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: "[iso-8859-1] Rachel Fouché" <vze4xd3t@verizon.net>

> You may find them so, but I assure you there is little disingenuous about
me.
>  I have heard this $3 word from many educated Haitians and wonder what the
> love affair with it is about.  I believe it is a polite way of saying I am
a
> liar.  It seems to me that you mean that I am mistaken not disingenuous.
I
> will assume that is what you mean and you can tell me if it is indeed
> "disingenuous" that you want to call my position.

Ms. Dorce, in no way did I infer that you are disingenuous -- I am very
aware on the power of words to build or break conversation, which is why I
restrict my comments to your comments; I don't know you, nor you me, so I
have no basis to refer to you as a "liar" or a disingenuous person -- the
same way that it does not give you any basis to refer to my intents as such.
That is why I wrote that "your comments" not "you" were disingenuous.  I
realize that personal attacks have happened on the list, but I was only
critiquing an idea that was put forth, nothing more, nothing less.  And if
you mean by "educated," a public school education and a bachelor's degree
that was earned by holding down two jobs and very little hope of ever
seeking an advanced degree until retirement, why thank you!

> In no case do you have to have money to put people first.  It's simply a
> value.  When you put money before people your soul begins to shrink.  That
is
> why the people" of Haiti are so rich in spirit while the elite class is
> devoid of same.

Again with the personal inference that I am some part of the elite Haitian
cabal.  I could present more than enough proof that my priority in life is
the quality of lives of people --  first and foremost the country of my
ancestors and parents.  But this IS a discussion of ideas, NOT of PERSONAL
or PERCEIVED social standings. In the case of Haiti, which is the poorest
country in the western hemisphere, putting people first to me means dealing
with the structure of how their everyday lives are led; I focus on medicine
and education as barometers of how societies measure their responsibilities
to their fellow human being.  It is unrealistic to think that goodwill alone
will change the rate of illiteracy or the ratio of medical personnel to the
populace in Haiti -- that's why Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were shot
in my opinion: they knew that in order to continue their fights against
racial oppression they needed to talk about the economics racial oppression.
I realize that such discussions are distasteful to some segments of American
policy wonks, but it is as valid as talking about "souls" and lack thereof.
In my statements, I do not address the spirit of the Haitian people because
it was never part of the conversation to begin with -- I was addressing
tactics, not philosophy.  There is that story about the babies floating down
into a village and the villagers save each and every one of them every time
because of their GOODWILL; then one villager comes up with the TACTIC to
find out why the babies are in the river in the first place...

> I'm not sure if you meant to say this.....do you mean you need money to
put
> people first and to put money first?  It's a tough argument to make, but
I'm
> willing to listen.  Please explain.

In order to provide for the well-being of the elderly and disabled in the
U.S., every working citizen must pay into FICA -- whether you think you'll
get your money back or not; before this system was created, the OVERALL
status of the elderly and disabled was a disgrace, despite the fact that
there were several philanthropic groups dedicated to help the elderly and
disabled.  In order to assure that citizens who cannot take care of
themselves are cared for, a system was established to provide the financial
means to ensure that there is "charity towards all," although there are
still gaps in the current system.  I am a pragmatist with a social agenda,
not an humanist -- the whims of the human conscience is far too unstable to
establish a structure of equality, opportunity for all, and a safety net/leg
up for those who may stumble.  Now, one can argue Christian morality,
etc. -- but I like to read the fine print while listening to fine words.

Again, your initial commentary was on the veracity of an idea, not on the
social philosophy.  If you would like to actually engage a conversation on
the social philosophy of Haitian society, it probably would be best to
address it in a separate discussion stream...

> >>The establishment of a Haitian Republican party only serves to better
> influence
> US policy in Haiti, much in the same way Cuban exiles have influenced US
> policy with regard to Cuba>>

> >>A sustainable economy is what the Haitian people need first and
foremost,
> and if this Haitian Republican Party can re-establish confidence with the
> capitalist corporate sector, I say "where do I sign up?  Do you need some
> assistance?">>

If you are going to quote what I wrote, please quote it in its entirety.  I
wrote that I do not agree with the policies of the Cuban exiles, but it
reinforces my point.  Power is being exercised in U.S. policy towards Haiti,
and it must be harnessed.  There are people who are so entrenched in the
ideas that our political parties represent different ideologies that never
question who's behind the curtains fueling the machines.  POWER and who has
it is the only difference between the parties and if it makes them look good
to throw a bone to the oppressed, than so be it.  It was the Republican
party that freed the slaves, and the Democratic party has purported to be
the Friend of The Negro for only thirty-odd years now, so please excuse me
if I'm not too interested in what ideology is running government because
history has shown that it will change if it means that they will gain ten
points in the public opinion category.

And if it is your belief that ANY PERSON OF AFRICAN DESCENT would buy into
either political parties' rhetoric wholesale, ignoring their own history as
an oppressed people, then I would soundly have to question your point of
view.  Again there appears to be two issues -- not necessarily in
conflict -- being discussed here:  ideology and power.  I am only addressing
the issue of power, as I no longer add to the overwhelming bulk of "ideas on
what's wrong with Haiti, how to fix Haiti, etc."  To me, it is entertaining
discussion that doesn't go anywhere.

> Why aren't you upset that the convergence hasn't done one thing except try
to
> remove Aristide?  Why aren't you criticizing them for not using their
> strengths to help make a difference in the day to day life in Haiti?
Every
> ounce of their beings is concentrated on one thing and one thing only, the
> removal of Aristide and the destruction of Lavalas.  Why doesn't this
upset
> you?  Because they do it with style and elegance?  Jobs and Money would
slip
> through the giant holes that exist in Haiti's infrastructure, figurative
and
> literal.  What kind of jobs will help a person who can't read and write???
> How much money can an unskilled laborer make?  No, there are things to be
> done before jobs and money start to make a difference.  Free education for
> all, how about sanitation, law and order, utilities, especially potable
water
> and electricity.  The US taketh away, now let them giveth back.  THEN we
can
> talk jobs and money.  The Republicans only help the wealthy and then count
on
> them to let some of that money trickle down to the people....sometimes it
> does, sometimes it doesn't.  But all I know is I am way better off when a
> Democrat is in the White House.....go figure.

Are we talking about life in Haiti or life in the U.S.?  If we are
discussing Haiti, then I don't think the Haitian people have seen any
perceivable POSITIVE change since Duvalier was overthrown.  I don't support
Aristide simply because I believe him incapable of running a democratic
system in which all Haitians, regardless of class, can be guaranteed their
basic human right to one's life -- forget about liberty and the pursuit of
happiness.  You trade brutality against the political poor with brutality
against the political elite, and you still come up with the same messed up
system -- different cast of characters, though.  Again with the "attacks" on
my "personal alliances" even though the conversation was based on ideas
originally, but I only get upset when something that is actively and truly
working is destroyed.  Lavalas couldn't pay that bill for me, sorry -- even
if they quoted Shakespeare or Hugo ad nauseum.  More fine deeds and less
fine talk is my motto.

"Free" education, sanitation (which, by the way, has been the biggest
advancement in public health -- not medicine itself), and law and order are
not free -- they are developed on systems of taxation that individuals pay
into because they believe that they can only promote society.  To ignore the
structures on which we base these principals IS disingenuous because it
ignores how these ideals are built into practice.

I always have to wonder, though, about this idea that illiteracy equals the
"inability to do anything for oneself".  When I last visited Haiti, I had
the chance to attend a lecture from the Minister of the Environment.  Now,
the trash situation in Haiti isn't as bad as it first appears, he stated,
because it is 80% organic in origination.  Composting would really help the
problem, but the people are illiterate.  Now, at the time, I was working at
a farm program (a job eagerly sought after by the children of Haitian
elites, mind you), that regularly composted organic waste -- I can attest to
the overwhelming lack of education needed to transmit the idea of composting
to the illiterate population of Haiti, as the proof of its effectiveness is
in the compost pile.  But the Minister at the time continually pointed to
the level of illiteracy as inability to introduce such a solution to a huge
problem.  What?!?  Again with the two cents, not the two arms.  I know
people who are functionally illiterate, but they do more for Haiti in one
day than ten intellectuals can because they ACT, not TALK ABOUT ACTING.

Putting your political eggs in one basket has always spelled disaster,
because the political system isn't built on ideology alone.  Diversify the
conversation, diversify the solutions -- trickling both up and down will get
to the middle faster.  And the more people that inhabit the middle, the more
stability can be achieved in Haiti.

Rachel Fouché