15341: Karshan: Min.of Foreign Affairs re: Restitution by France to Haiti (Radio Solidarity) (fwd)

[Bob Corbett <corbetre@webster.edu>]

From: MKarshan@aol.com

Restitution by France to Haiti for the Ransom Paid for its Independence

A Radio Solidarity Interview With Haitian Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Joseph Philippe Antonio

Port-au-Prince, April 10, 2003
(Translated from Creole)

RS: Good morning Mr. Joseph Philippe Antonio.  Welcome to Radio Solidarity.

JPA:    Good morning, thank you.

RS: On April 7, 2003, which marked the 200 anniversary of the death of
Toussaint Louverture, President Jean-Bertrand Aristide made a statement in
his speech where he asked France to pay restitution to Haiti in the amount
approximately $21 billion U.S. because France had forced Haiti to pay 90
million gold francs in order to recognize Haiti's independence and for all of
the transgressions France perpetrated against Haiti during the colonial
period.   Today the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dominique de
Villepin responded that there is no way this would happen.  What is your
reaction as Haiti's Minister of Foreign Affairs?

JPA:    Let me say that President Aristide did effectively raise the issue of
restitution during his speech.  I should say that this is an issue that had
already been raised in Durban, South Africa two years ago during the
Conference Against Racism.  There was an anti-slavery seminar on the theme of
reparations and pardon, where I, the Haitian Foreign Minister, brought up the
subject of restitution.  That is to say this issue is not a new one.  The
second thing I would like to say is that I have read the reaction of the
French authorities in response to the President Aristide's declaration.  You
will notice a certain embarrassment on their part.  You will notice that they
begin to talk about how much cooperation and aid Europe has given to Haiti,
when we raised the very specific question of the ransom of 90 million gold
francs Haiti paid to France for its independence.  We in fact paid much more
because we were forced to take out loans at very high interest rates at the
time the debt was incurred. So, in effect, the issue today is that there were
monies that were wrongly paid by or taken from Haiti, which France obliged us
to pay.  The issue today is a matter of restitution with all the interest
due.  This is a rational position for Haiti to take, especially during this
very difficult period we are presently living.
Let me underline for you that lately there have been other countries, other
populations who were victim during this period [of slavery] who have
requested indemnity for the wrongs done to them from several European
countries.  At the onset, all of these countries said they would not pay, but
in the end did in fact pay.  They paid very graciously.  What I mean to say
is that the initial reaction of the French government is normal.  The day
before yesterday, President Aristide raised the issue and the French
government responded by saying no.  But I think that good sense and reason
will in the end prevail and at some point the two parties will sit down
around the table to clearly outline the issue and there will be a compromise
reached to put an end to this controversy.

RS: Mr. Dominique de Villepin said in his declaration that France, through
the aid that the international community has given to Haiti, has already
turned over to Haiti the value of about 200 million euros as part of the 2
billion this community has given to Haiti.  He estimates that this is already
a large amount.  Do you believe that the French are going around the issue,
as we are now talking about something very specific, that is the debt Haiti
had to pay for its independence - restitution for this debt?

JPA:  That is precisely what I just said.  The reaction of the French is
evidence of their embarrassment.  They are embarrassed by the question.  The
proof is that we are talking about the ransom we paid, and asking them to pay
restitution and they respond by talking about cooperation.  We are talking
about $21 billion and they have come back with cooperation in the sum of 200
million euros.  These are two totally different issues.  On the one hand,
monies we were forced to pay that we should not have had to pay, plus
interest.  On the other hand, aid that is part of cooperation, which is part
of normal relations between countries.

RS: Not to mention, the monies the international community have given to
Haiti are loans that Haiti must pay back and is in fact paying back.

JPA:    Look, let's not have a debate on aid that Haiti receives from X or Y.
 Some aid is in the form of loans, which we reimburse.  Some are investments
in the country, which do not have to be returned.  That is to say this type
of aid has no interest and does not need to be reimbursed.  But, as I have
said, this is not the issue.  And as you have said yourself, they are
off-point with the 200 million.

RS: Do you think, Mr. Antonio, that in Mr. de Villepin's declaration, there
is an implicit recognition that they owe Haiti?

JPA:    Absolutely.  This question is not new; it's not the first time this
has been pointed out.  Lately there have been several seminars and
conferences on the subject; French Parliamentarians have taken to the floor
of Parliament to ask their government to reimburse Haiti, to pay restitution
of this ransom.  This question is a contemporary one in France and in certain
African countries.  It is a current question for the entire world.  So France
cannot say now that they never received the money.  And as I said previously,
it is almost normal that their first reaction is to say, "we won't pay."

RS: Do you believe that in the end the French government will pay this money?
 Money that the government of Haiti is waiting for and according to what is
has said will use for large development projects in the country.

JPA:    The first reaction is normal.  You say I owe you.  I say I don't owe
you.  But eventually, reason and good sense will prevail.  I know that the
two interested parties, the Haitian Government and the French Government will
sit down around the table to discuss this issue.  They must in the end reach
a consensus.  That is to say France will pay restitution for the monies that
it owes Haiti.  One will accept to pay and the other will accept to receive.

RS:     Coupled with the declaration that the Head of State made in his
speech earlier this week, are there steps being taken to officially and
formally submit a demand for restitution from the French Government?

JPA:    Let me begin by saying, we are not going to go public with all of the
initiatives and maneuvers that are actually taking place.  But I can certify
to you that the Haitian Government, the Haitian community and even those
outside of the Haitian community - people who are interested in Haiti - they
are on the matter.  And at the government level
there are measures being taken to meet with the French authorities on this
subject.  But I will ask you not to ask me for too many details.  I don't
think now is the time for us to say what we are or are not doing.

RS: Have you found support from certain other communities, other countries
that share the same predicament and that are claiming the same recompense,
with respect to the initiatives being taken by the Government?

JPA:    Let's be clear, we are asking for restitution.  Restitution means to
reimburse what you took that did not belong to you, with interest.  And, to
my knowledge, we are the only country that has raised the issue as such.  But
there are tens of other countries that were victims of colonialism, that were
victims of slavery, and who are requesting reparations for the harms done to
them by slavery.  Don't forget that the French Parliament a few years ago
voted a law or passed a resolution that declared slavery to be a crime
against humanity.  Given that France was a country that practiced slavery, it
follows that once it has declared slavery to be a crime against humanity, it
must then do what it takes to make whole those whom it had enslaved.  I can
say that reparations are the second step in our struggle.  The issue is posed
as follows:  first, restitution and then reparations.  And in Durban, a third
aspect was added - pardon.

RS: When you speak of reparations, does that mean there is a judicial action
in the works that would ask the French to pay reparations for the offenses
that France committed against this land?

JPA:    Do understand that the issue of reparations is different from that of
the ransom paid to France by Haiti.  In effect what you say is true.  There
are reparations to be made for wrongdoings inflicted upon our ancestors, the
first population of this country, by slavery.  But as I have said, I don't
think it will come to judicial action.  I think that France is a country that
has a long tradition of respect and democracy.  After all, we cannot forget
the French Revolution.  It is my belief that the French government, the
French authorities and the French people will in the end recognize the
necessity for both restitution and reparations.  We will see with regard to
the pardon.

RS: You say you do not think it will come to the need for a judicial process,
but we know that there are no reparations without justice.  And if we would
need to initiate judicial action, it would be before what body?

JPA:    Recall that it is said that a good settlement between adversaries is
likely better than a good trial.  So what we seek first is the settlement.
Justice can be attained through the settlement, through negotiation.  That is
to say, initiating a judicial process is the last resort.  This would come at
a point when the other party refuses absolutely to take any step in your
direction.  We would be forced to take the ultimate step - a lawsuit.  You
asked me where this lawsuit would be heard.  It could be heard before
international authorities.  It could be in Haiti.  It could be in France.  It
is those learned in international law that could judge such a case.  As I
have said, I do not want to dwell too much on the details of this aspect of
the issue.

RS: A moment ago, you spoke of the issue of pardon.  Are you anticipating
that after resolving the issues of restitution and reparations, that France
would publicly seek pardon from the Haitian people for the offenses inflicted
upon this land?

JPA:    I do not believe that France will come and seek a pardon from the
Haitian people.  France is a country that at a certain time had a policy of
slavery.  The French Parliament, who declared slavery to be a crime against
humanity that deserves reparation, has denounced this policy.  I think that
once these things have happened, it would already be an admission.  It is a
way of saying, "We were wrong.  We will try to repair."  Once reparations are
made, pardon will immediately follow.  I don't think France will seek a
pardon.  This is not the issue.  It is a question of logic.  Once France pays
restitution and reparations, humanity will pardon its past.

RS: Steps being taken by the government to obtain restitution and reparations
from France finds support from certain sectors, but some other sectors,
especially the opposition, have opposed these initiatives.

JPA:    The opposition is the opposition, and we are ourselves.  We know that
the large majority of the Haitian people are with us.  We know that a large
part of the international community, especially countries that were also
victims of slavery support us.  I must say that if we had shut our mouths and
said nothing on the subject, the opposition would accuse us by saying, "Look
they [the Government] are going into the bicentennial celebrations of 2004
and of the death of Toussaint Louverture, and they are not attempting to
reclaim restitution or reparations."  Any initiatives we take, whatever we
do, they would criticize us.  Consequently, the fact that the opposition is
criticizing us does not pose a dilemma for me.  We know certainly, the more
we do, the more they will criticize.  There are certainly people of good will
and good sense within the opposition and they know that their opposition to
this question is useless, even if they don't dare say it.  But because of the
political problems that we are living today, they take this stance.  But deep
in their hearts, deep within their patriotic selves, and being free Haitian
citizens, they know the Government's position is just and I believe that on a
certain level they support it.  I believe if the crisis were to be resolved,
the whole of the Haitian population would support this initiative.  That on
the eve of 2004, there are steps being taken to reclaim restitution from
France.

RS: The opposition raises the issues of credibility and corruption within the
Government as the reason we should not receive such monies.  And certain
opposition leaders, such as Evan Paul, have stated that if this money were to
fall into the hands of the Government, it would be looted.

JPA:    You know the old song that these people [the opposition] are always
singing.  It is normal that they say these types of things.  Maybe Mr. Evans
Paul in saying this is in some way disappointed that they were not first in
bringing this issue to light.  The fact that it is the Government, the
majority Fanmi Lavalas party, that have made the decision to pursue this,
they are trying to take it apart, criticize it, etc.  It may be a form of
"jealousy."  But as I have said, I know that all Haitian patriots, no matter
what political sector they align with, know these initiatives are legitimate.
 And that somewhere inside of themselves they know them to be proper.  If
tomorrow the political crisis ended, they would unite as one with us to make
triumph this point of view.   This is why these types of declarations do not
bother me too much.  They are political statements made in a political
context.  That is all.

RS: Since on January 1, 2004, we will celebrate 200 years of Haiti's
independence, do we hope that before this time and in order to make the
celebration more successful, we would receive not only restitution, but that
France would pay reparations to this country?

JPA:    Let me say this, the steps being taken do not envision that France
will give us money to make 2004 2004 times more beautiful.  That is to say,
2004 will be a Haitian celebration that will happen with the resources
available to the country.  If it is small, it is small.  If it is big, it is
big.  That said, we believe that the international community, African
countries - who are very ready to help us, Caribbean countries, Latin
American countries, and even European countries - including France will
contribute to the celebration.  I think that all these countries will come
together with us to make a very beautiful 2004.  That said, we are not
counting on monies that France will give us within the framework of
restitution or reparations, to celebrate 2004.

RS: What I mean to say is not that we are waiting for this money for the 2004
celebrations, but that if this money were to be paid before 2004, would not
it be a better 2004?

JPA:    In the President's speech yesterday, when he spoke of this issue, he
followed with a dream.   In essence, if in the next few months before the
celebration of 2004, France would recognize the necessity to immediately
liberate itself of this debt, this money would help make 2004 extraordinary.
What I mean is, an extraordinary 2004 with regard to investments to benefit
Haiti, to benefit the sons and daughters of the former slaves.  To benefit
our peasants, our countryside and the lives of every Haitian.  So I think if
within this timeframe, France recognized the necessity for us to receive this
money, 2004 would be even more beautiful.  As the President said, there would
be hospitals, schools, electricity and roads.  But as I have said, we are not
counting on this money to celebrate 2004.  2004 will be celebrated within our
means and the means that the peoples of the countries who wish to accompany
us provide because they agree with the theme of our celebration.  They will
help us celebrate 2004.

RS: Mr. Antonio, thank you for accepting to speak to Radio Solidarity on this
issue.

JPA:    No problem.  Have a good day.

RS: Thank you.

JPA:    Thank you.

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